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NightBelow

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PostSubject: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:31 am

With the recent suggestions of alternate class abilities for the ranger and the divine champion another question arose.
Its somehow related, and knowing about it would make reviewing of the proposed abilities a lot easier: What will the general magic level on the server look like ? Okay, it'll be low-magic, that has been stated somewhere I believe, but what does that mean for general item power ? Where will be the cap for enhancements to AB or AC, the max. skill or ability score bonus given, max. damage addition etc. ? For example, if there'll be no items with additional damage dice, the divine champions +1D6 vs. other alignments will be pretty powerful. On the other hand, if we'll see +4 or +5 AB weapons (god forbid on a level 15 server lol) the rangers newly proposed ability would be rather diminished.

So, are there any plans where magical items will be capped ?

If not, thoughts ? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:45 pm

General power levels will be relatively low. It wont be unheard of to have a +1 weapon around level six, +2s will be fairly rare, and most characters will never own one. Wands, scrolls, potions and the like will not be readily available, but when they do exist they will likely be level 3 and below, but higher levels and faction members may have access to higher level items. AWU may have a better idea of what exactly is and is not available, but suffice to say I don't plan on handing out any Holy Avengers.

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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:50 pm

+1 weapons and armor should be around, the players will have to find contacts, earn reputation before they can just slap down the money for them tho. The bandit kingdoms are a war-torn region and has been for many years, even items such as full plate cost more here then in other, more civilized areas of the Flaness. +2 weapons and armor should mean something, and +3 will be rare, and only come from level 12+ DM events.

Should a low level character end up with a high level magic item, and they were not at the event which spawned the item, rather then taking it away from the character, I propose we direct the RTG to them and pay the thieves to steal the item, while the npc boss adds the weapon to her collection. Of course if the thieves get greedy, then more RTG memebers will have to be dispatched to wack their former associates. The idea is to keep it in game, not appear as an all powerful being or an OOC overseer and simply take the item away, even though that is what we are doing.

This is what is in my head, and is by no means set in stone...

Level 1-3: skill bump items, potions, scrolls, wands.
level 4-7: +1 items and +2 stat items start to be seen, while they are not cheap, they should be able to be acquired.
level 8-11: +2 items and +4 stat items start to be seen, they will be expensive.
level 12-15: +3 items and +6 or +4/4 stat items MAY, be awarded from DM events, as those are wear you are going to earn most of your XP once you hit level 12.


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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:28 pm

All Washed Up wrote:
Should a low level character end up with a high level magic item, and they were not at the event which spawned the item, rather then taking it away from the character, I propose we direct the RTG to them and pay the thieves to steal the item, while the npc boss adds the weapon to her collection. Of course if the thieves get greedy, then more RTG memebers will have to be dispatched to wack their former associates. The idea is to keep it in game, not appear as an all powerful being or an OOC overseer and simply take the item away, even though that is what we are doing.

Baha, love it.

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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:01 pm

That's along the lines what I expected - beautiful low magic approach. Very Happy All for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:30 pm

There are also going to be some changes to which slots boost which stats.

Head slot will boost one or more mental stats (Int, Wis and Cha).
Blet slot will boost one or more physical stats (Str, Con and Dex).

These are just some examples of what I would like to see over the NWN items.
Head:
Circlet of Persuasion, +3 on Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate.
Crown of Blasting, Searing Light as 6th level caster 1/day.
Eyes of Doom, Doom (DC11) Unlimited/day, Fear (DC 16) 1/day.
Eyes of the Eagle, +5 to Spot.
Goggles of Minute Seeing, +5 to Search and Disable Device.
Goggles of Night, Darkvision 60'
Hat of Disguise, Disguise Self Unlimited/Day (once we make this spell, I have a few ideas, but I am too bust atm)
Headband of alluring Charisma +2
Headband of inspired Wisdom +2, +4, +6
Headband of Vast Intelligence +2, +4, +6
Headband of Mental Prowess +2, +4, +6 (to all mental stats)
Mask of the Skull, Finger of Death (DC 20) 1/day.

Neck:
Amulet of Mighty Fists, +1 to +5 bonus for unarmed damage, capped at 3.
Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 to +5 bonus, capped between +3 or 4.
Brooch of Shielding, absorbs 101 points of magic missile damage.
Necklace of Fireballs I - VII, Fireballs at various caster levels.
Periapt of Health (Major), Disease Immunity.
Periapt of Health (Minor), +2 bonus vs. Diseases.
Periapt of Proof Against Poison (Major), Poison Immunity.
Periapt of Proof Against Poison (Minor), +2 bonus vs. Poisons.
Periapt of Wound Closure, regeneration 1

Chest:
Monk's Gi, +1 to +5 Dodge AC, capped at +3.
Robes of Bending, Alter Self 1/day. Lasts for 1 hour.
Robe of Bones, Animate Dead 2/-
Vest of Escape, +4 to Disable Device, +6 to Tumble.

Back:
Cloak of Arachnida, Immunity to Web, Cast Web 1/hour as 6th level caster.
Cloak of the Bat, + 5 to hide and move silently, can turn himself into a bat as 7th level caster.
Cloak of Displacement (Major), May use displacement as a 7th level caster twice per day.
Cloak of Displacement (Minor), May use blur as a 3rd level caster twice per day.
Cloak of Elvenkind, +5 to Hide and Move Silently.
Cloak of Reistance, +1 to +5, capped at +3.

Wrist/Hands:
Bracers of Archery, Lesser: Grant Point Blank Shot.
Bracers of Armor, provide armor bonus from +1 to +8, most likely capped at +5 or 6 for the server.
Gloves of Arrow Snaring, Deflect Arrows.

Waist:
Belt of Dwarvenkind, darkvision 60, stonecunning, +2 on saves vs poison and magic.
Belt of Giant Strength +2, +4, +6
Belt of Increasable Dexterity +2, +4, +6
Belt of Mighty Constitution +2, +4, +6
Belt of Physical Might +2, +4, +6 (to all physical stats)

Feet:
Boots of Elven Kind, +5 bonus to Tumble.
Boots of Speed, Haste for 5 rounds, usable twice per day.
Boots of Striding and Springing, 10% increased movement, +5 to tumble checks.
Boots of the Winterlands, Endure Elements 1/day, trackless steps.

Rings:
Ring of (any skill here), +5 to (any skill here).
Ring of Force Shield, +2 Shield Bonus.
Ring of Freedom of Movement, constant freedom of movement.
Ring of Friend Shield, Shield Other 1/day.
Ring of Invisibility, Invisibility Unlimited/Day 3rd level caster.
Ring of Improved (any skill here), +10 to (any skill here).
Ring of Deflection +1 to +5, capped at +3 deflection bonus.

So the number of slots which players will be able to stack stat boosting items is reduced, and players will have to make choices based on what is best for their character and the role they wish to fulfill. I doubt we make the +6 Belt of Physical Might or Headband of Mental Prowess available, their cost in the CRB is 90,000 (45,000 to create) gold, which is well beyond what a 15th level character could afford. Even the +4 versions cost 40,000 (20,000 to create) gold.


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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:53 pm

So we're not having any boots/gloves of dexterity and the like?

I've always felt that having random items boost random stats was rather silly.

Are skill bump items going to be on the hand and feet slots or how are we handling those?

Also, I assume save bumps are still going to be on cloaks?

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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:24 pm

What are the thoughts on skill adjustment items. For example a dagger that gives +2 to Parry but is otherwise normal.

Will this be possible, or would that be considered a magical item?
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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:31 pm

I don't see a problem with minor enhancements given by real-world explanations. +1 or +2 given by well-crafted thieves tools or trap disarming tools would be fine, I can't think of anything else off hand but you get the idea. As long as it keeps it at +2 or below (as +3 is magical) I wouldn't see anything wrong with it.

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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:45 pm

NWN DM wrote:
What are the thoughts on skill adjustment items. For example a dagger that gives +2 to Parry but is otherwise normal.

Will this be possible, or would that be considered a magical item?

If its between a +1 and +2 bonus I say we call them Superior and Master Work. This would go for skill bumping items only, never AC, AB or Saving Throw Items.

A Superior performer's outfit would provide a bard a + 1 bonus on perform and cost him 175 gold + 3 gold (normal cost of a performer's outfit).
A Master Work performer's outfit would provide a bard a + 2 bonus on perform and cost him 353 gold.

As for a dagger adding the parry, the only reason I say no is because I dislike parry and plan to find a way to disable it. The same goes for taunt. If they had made taunt part of Intimidate, I would have no issue with it as it is along the lines of demoralize function of the skill in PnP, but as is, I plan to disable it, Mammon wants to try to change its name to Intimidate, and see what happens, we may play with that before I flat out turn it off. If you like either skill, I am open for a debate on leaving them in, I simply do not like them because they are not part of PnP.

I would have no issue adding a non-magical Main Gauche which provided a +1 dodge ac and a -1 to attack to deter people from using two of them, their cost would need to be about the same as a masterwork dagger, so a masterwork Main Gaunche would be quite expensive.

Edit: non magical skill bump items should be limited to one skill only, at the very least related skills (eg. Bluff, Perform and Diplomacy; Search and Disable Device; Spot and Listen; Hide and Move Silently).


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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:46 am

I think we should find a way to make taunt called intimidate so we can just disable the worthless intimidate.

My thought :-)

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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:26 am

I was playing around with a main gauche just to see if I could do what I mentioned earlier. The issue was that the ac bonus being applied to the weapon was a deflection bonus... which is a no go. So I went in to the feats 2da, told it to make the dodge feat stack, but still prevent people from taking it more then once, then went back to the tool set and had the main gauche apply the dodge feat. Works perfectly, hehe. So the Main Gauche provides a +1 dodge AC and a -1 to hit for the hand which it is equipped in.

Down side to this weapon is casters will use it to bump their ac, but since a basic version will cost 350 gold, not sure its worth worrying about.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:02 am

Some thoughts 'bout numbers ...

With the setting and server being low-magic I'd suggest the following 'caps' on adjustments, note that most correspond with what has already been mentioned, just putting some of my ideas into it. Very Happy

Weapon enhancements: As has been said, +1 weapons should be more or less uncommon, +2 rare and +3 (if they'll be ever seen) only rewarded as plot rewards for level 12+ characters.
So far so good, but it begs the question if Greater Magic Weapon is to be nerfed (I.E. capped at +3) or disabled entirely (with only regular Magical Weapon remaining active), otherwise we'll have a bunch of high-level casters running around which also happen to wield the best weapons in the game, which is a no-go for a low-magic approach if you ask me.
What about additional damage properties though (I.E. elemental damage, slashing, piercing, you name it) ?

Armour enhancements: Restricting AC bonus items to a +2 overall seems appropriate as well, yet all the different kinds of AC bonus should be available IMHO: Natural AC, Armour AC (incl. shield AC), Deflection AC and Dodge AC as well. Natural Armour is restricted to amulet slots afair, and Dodge AC to boot slot items. I wouldn't worry about the raw power of Dodge AC too much, since only monks or characters with good UMD score can benefit from it if the items are tagged as monk gear.

Ability score / Stat score bonus items: Items with a +2 bonus to a major ability score should be the 'regular' rare items, though I wouldn't discard the notion of +4 ones entirely. Again, spellcasters will reign supreme with their six ability-boosting spells which give a flat +4 boost. Of course +4 items should be incredibly rare, like maybe +3 weapons or armours.

Saving throw bonus items: I believe +1 could be considered fairly common (especially if they only affect one of the three saving throws), with +2 items being uncommon and +3 being rare again.

Skill bonus items: Now, here's where it gets interesting. On a low-magic server skill bonus items actually mean something. When you are quite aware that not everybody's a fully boosted level 30 powerhouse, you'll notice that those tiny +3 increases to skills like hide or move silently, spot or listen actually begin to be very very interesting. Also, in a low-magic setting feats like skill focus (various) and stealthy, thug or negotiator will see a lot more use.
+1 or +2 skill boosts could be considered fairly non-magical, based on excellent craftmanship or high quality material.
+3 and +4 skill bonus items could be uncommon and considered magical in nature.
+5 bonus should be quite rare, and +6 bonus should be the upper cap IMHO.
Depending on the item slot in question, various skills might apply, some examples follow:
* Gloves: Parry, Intimidate, Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, UMD, etc.
* Weapons: Parry, Intimidate, Spot (if a continual light enchantment is on it as well Smile ), etc.
* Cloaks: Tumble, Hide, MS, Perform, etc.
* Boots: Tumble, Hide, MS, Listen (they are very quiet boots ^^), Survival, etc.
* Armours: Intimidate is the most likely candidate here.
* Headgear & Amulets: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, UMD, Lore, Perfrom, etc.
* Shields: Parry, Intimidate
Just some thoughts popping up, really.

Additional spell slot items: Suggestion: level 1 slot uncommon, level 2 slot rare, level 3 slot as a plot reward for high level characters again.

Items w. bonus feats: Should be rare as heck, if they're ever available.

Items w. outright immunities: Again, these should be almost impossibly rare, and eventually divine in nature, reserved for characters who somehow managed to advance the schemes of their deity or something along those lines.

Pondering if there's more coming to my sleep-deprived mind. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:30 am

All Washed Up wrote:
Down side to this weapon is casters will use it to bump their ac, but since a basic version will cost 350 gold, not sure its worth worrying about.

Eh, it's a parrying dagger, it's supposed to provide some protection. Isn't it a martial weapon anyways?

Even if not 350 gold for a low level +1 to ac isn't a bad idea, but if we find it to be broken we can always nerf it.


NB I like your classifications on skill items, they make sense to me and force the player to make good choices as to which items he wants, and which he doesn't.

I'm not sure about disabling greater magic weapon, as it's a temporary spell and if a caster is actually able to reach that power level I don't want to nerf them, as staying alive will be difficult (It's illegal to cast any spells in the Bandit Kingdoms unless you are a servant of the church of Iuz (arcane and divine).

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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:43 pm

Mammon wrote:
All Washed Up wrote:
Down side to this weapon is casters will use it to bump their ac, but since a basic version will cost 350 gold, not sure its worth worrying about.

Eh, it's a parrying dagger, it's supposed to provide some protection. Isn't it a martial weapon anyways?

Even if not 350 gold for a low level +1 to ac isn't a bad idea, but if we find it to be broken we can always nerf it.

No, it is a dagger (simple weapon). I do believe its only vs. the last target they attacked, so its not amazingly op.

NightBelow wrote:
Some thoughts 'bout numbers ...

With the setting and server being low-magic I'd suggest the following 'caps' on adjustments, note that most correspond with what has already been mentioned, just putting some of my ideas into it. Very Happy

Weapon enhancements: As has been said, +1 weapons should be more or less uncommon, +2 rare and +3 (if they'll be ever seen) only rewarded as plot rewards for level 12+ characters.
So far so good, but it begs the question if Greater Magic Weapon is to be nerfed (I.E. capped at +3) or disabled entirely (with only regular Magical Weapon remaining active), otherwise we'll have a bunch of high-level casters running around which also happen to wield the best weapons in the game, which is a no-go for a low-magic approach if you ask me.
What about additional damage properties though (I.E. elemental damage, slashing, piercing, you name it) ?
Weapons are capped at +3, +1 and +2 will be around for purchase through organization contacts, +2s will be more expensive then normal, and your character will have to have good reputation to purchase the weapon.

A +1 Flaming long sword is a +2 weapon, so it will follow the same rules on availability. A barbarian can rage to get above the the stat bump item, a fighter has weapon training, I had no plans to remove greater magic weapon.

NightBelow wrote:

Armour enhancements: Restricting AC bonus items to a +2 overall seems appropriate as well, yet all the different kinds of AC bonus should be available IMHO: Natural AC, Armour AC (incl. shield AC), Deflection AC and Dodge AC as well. Natural Armour is restricted to amulet slots afair, and Dodge AC to boot slot items. I wouldn't worry about the raw power of Dodge AC too much, since only monks or characters with good UMD score can benefit from it if the items are tagged as monk gear.

Fighters, Thugs, Swashbucklers, Scouts and Knights receive Dodge bonuses as part of their class abilities.
I am not sure about boots providing dodge bonuses, but I am not against the idea completely. I wish I could change the way UMD worked, but it is hard coded.

NightBelow wrote:

Ability score / Stat score bonus items: Items with a +2 bonus to a major ability score should be the 'regular' rare items, though I wouldn't discard the notion of +4 ones entirely. Again, spellcasters will reign supreme with their six ability-boosting spells which give a flat +4 boost. Of course +4 items should be incredibly rare, like maybe +3 weapons or armours.
This is quite normal, but the spell caster versions are temporary, while your items are permanent. Players should be able to buy +2 (to one) stat items from contacts, with +4 (to one) and +2 (to three) stats items being available at higher reputations. +6 (to one) and +4 (to three) will only be coming from the level 12+ dm events.

NightBelow wrote:

Saving throw bonus items: I believe +1 could be considered fairly common (especially if they only affect one of the three saving throws), with +2 items being uncommon and +3 being rare again.
I would not have problem with adding +1 save items in, they would be for lowbies with the big boys getting cloaks of resistance, which provide a +1 - +3 to all saves.

NightBelow wrote:

Skill bonus items: Now, here's where it gets interesting. On a low-magic server skill bonus items actually mean something. When you are quite aware that not everybody's a fully boosted level 30 powerhouse, you'll notice that those tiny +3 increases to skills like hide or move silently, spot or listen actually begin to be very very interesting. Also, in a low-magic setting feats like skill focus (various) and stealthy, thug or negotiator will see a lot more use.
+1 or +2 skill boosts could be considered fairly non-magical, based on excellent craftmanship or high quality material.
+3 and +4 skill bonus items could be uncommon and considered magical in nature.
+5 bonus should be quite rare, and +6 bonus should be the upper cap IMHO.
Depending on the item slot in question, various skills might apply, some examples follow:
* Gloves: Parry, Intimidate, Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, UMD, etc.
* Weapons: Parry, Intimidate, Spot (if a continual light enchantment is on it as well Smile ), etc.
* Cloaks: Tumble, Hide, MS, Perform, etc.
* Boots: Tumble, Hide, MS, Listen (they are very quiet boots ^^), Survival, etc.
* Armours: Intimidate is the most likely candidate here.
* Headgear & Amulets: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, UMD, Lore, Perfrom, etc.
* Shields: Parry, Intimidate
Just some thoughts popping up, really.

While I like the way you broke down the slots, the i think the skill bonuses we layed out earlier were reasonable enough. A ring of climbing (+5 to climbing) for example costs 2500g, the improved version costs 10,000 gold, but ups the skill bonus to +10.

+1 - +2 skill bump items are common, and reflect good craftsmanship.
+5 skill bump items are rare, and are magical.
+10 skill bump items come form level 12+ dm events.

NightBelow wrote:

Additional spell slot items: Suggestion: level 1 slot uncommon, level 2 slot rare, level 3 slot as a plot reward for high level characters again.
The issue I have with 3rd level slots being the rare version is that 12th level characters cast 6th level spells. Rather then put these spell slots on just any item, I plan on making a variation of pearls of power I-V, which provide a bonus spell slot rather then recalling an already cast spell. Rings of Wizardry behave differently in PF then they do in NWN2, rather then providing a bonus spell slot, they double the number of spells for that level, Rings of Wizardry I, and its divine equivalents will be extremely rare, Rings of Wizardry II will be something that is only awarded for extremely difficult feats, such as slaying a Boneheart.

The effect should be rather simple, we look at the caster level required to make the item. For version I, it takes an 11th level caster, they have 4 1st level spells per day base, so the ring would provide the 1st level bonus spell slot feat 4 times. Version II requires a 14th level caster to create, they have 4 2nd level spells per day base, so the ring would provide the 2nd level bonus spell slot feat 4 times.

NightBelow wrote:

Items w. bonus feats: Should be rare as heck, if they're ever available.
Hrmm, depends, if we are trying to get an item such as the Main Gauche above, I have no issue having it assign the dodge feat. The same would go for a halberd or spear granting monkey grip so it can be a trident. The feats are only active while the item is equipped. Do I want to make a habit out of providing these types of bonuses, no.

NightBelow wrote:

Items w. outright immunities: Again, these should be almost impossibly rare, and eventually divine in nature, reserved for characters who somehow managed to advance the schemes of their deity or something along those lines.
I do agree, the few listed above are straight out of the CRB, and simply examples. After all, I spent a good chuck of time rewriting contagion to take the caster's DC into account, I do not want that to go to waste because everyone is immune to diseases.

NightBelow wrote:

Pondering if there's more coming to my sleep-deprived mind. Very Happy

The more we talk about these things, the better refined they will be. Wink


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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:37 pm

*head explodes*

I'm glad I'm building areas and not making items.

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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:38 pm

Mammon wrote:
*head explodes*

I'm glad I'm building areas and not making items.

Lol, its not more difficult then building areas.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:52 pm

Clearly you have not built an area... slap down some buildings, a lil paint, tree or two... WAHLAH! Southern Rookroost. Move some walls around... NORTHERN ROOKROOST! AHA!


I kid, I kid...

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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:12 am

Item building is fun =P
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PostSubject: Re: Magic items / enchantments power levels ?   Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:02 am

Low level magic, low level items, low level enchantments. A +1 item with an extra ability should be considered amazing, and a +2 item should be legendary IMO. Regarding items that provide a skill bonus, I would go above +5 and make it a rare item indeed.
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