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 Cleric Spell List Changes?

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All Washed Up
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PostSubject: Cleric Spell List Changes?   Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:58 pm

So mr. pain and I were talking in mIRC a few days ago about clerics, and we both agreed clerics are way to popular due to their power.

The setting of our server is difficult for any caster class unless they are aligned with Iuz. If they are discovered, they will become criminals, hunted down, tortured, and executed, unless some brave fools over come insurmountable odds and manage to rescue them.

That could lead to the divine caster population of Iuz and the Dimre (non-good followers of Pholtus) being over populated, which is also not a good thing.

So an idea was hatched... why would Rao (god of peace) grant his clerics spells that would turn his clerics into iron clad juggernauts of war? Why would Nerull grant his clerics healing spells at all, all living things offend him, he wants everything to die.

So what would you guys think of spell lists being generated based on Domain selections.

There would be a small list which all clerics received, but the rest of the list would be tied to their domains.
An Example...
Clerics with the Fire domain
1st - Level: Burning Hands, Endure Elements, Produce Flame
2nd-Level: Resist Energy, Scorching Ray
3rd-level: Fire Ball, Flame Arrow

Clerics would basiclly be forced into one of three archetypes based on their domain selection, which will be verified with their god selection...
  • Battle Cleric: Gains spells which buffs his and his allies battle abilities.
  • Healer/Defender: Provides defenses to himself and his party.
  • Nuker: A divine evoker would be the best way to describe this type of character.


If we were to do this, Oracles would also be effected by the change to the cleric's spell list, meaning they would also have to have spells assigned to them based on their mystery. This is just an idea at this point, wanted to know what you boys thought of it.

To further elaborate lets compare two clerics.
Cleric A worships Nerull, the god of the death. He has the Death and Darkness Domains.
Cleric B worships Incabulos, the god of suffering and pain. He has the Death and Suffering Domains.

Cleric A and B each share the Death domain, so half of their spell list is going to be identical, all about death, undeath and killing people, but Cleric A has the darkness domain, which will be about... DARKNESS! controlling the battle field, shielding himself and other from the light and so on. While Cleric B has the suffering domain, which will focus on bring pain to the enemy, and most likely focus around debuffing their enemies. Will it be possible for two clerics who follow different gods to end up the same spell list? Yes it will, but it is also possible for two clerics of the same god to end up with slightly or completely different spell lists based on which aspects (domain selection) the cleric chooses to venerate.
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PostSubject: Re: Cleric Spell List Changes?   Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:22 am

Maybe the heal spells are still available, they just become higher level spells?
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PostSubject: Re: Cleric Spell List Changes?   Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:01 am

I certainly would be in favor of restricting the cleric's spell access to those that would best befit their respective domain and deity.
It would diminish the number of 'divine-buff-monsters-who-never-say-a-prayer-all-day' quite a bit I guess. Twisted Evil

Yet, there should be a general 'pool' of base clerical spells every divine caster should be able to draw spells from (you know, those common or even 'typical' cleric spells associated with them: Bless, Divine Favour, Prot. f. Evil or Good, just to name the level one ones, you can apply that scheme to all spell levels), and they should not be so restricted as to appear crippled class-wise. I'd guess even in Pathfinder clerics are still one of the more 'powerful' classes in terms of mechanics.

Another option: Priests of good deities should have overall access to cure minor, cure light, cure moderate, cure serious and cure critical wounds, maybe even heal (that's level six or seven IIRC and thus fairly high-level anyways).
Priest of evil deities might be granted free access to the inflict wounds spells in all its magnitudes.
Clergy of neutral deities should be given a choice at character creation, if such is scriptable ?


A more general question: Arcane casters are outlawed in the under the settings regions ruling caste (I.E. those allied with the priesthood of Iuz), is that right ? Does that apply to clerics / oracles / druids / any other form of caster as well ?
Are they actively hunted and tracked down, or are they outlawed because one is afraid of their magical prowess and possible threats to the powers-that-be ?

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PostSubject: Re: Cleric Spell List Changes?   Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:21 pm

NightBelow wrote:
A more general question: Arcane casters are outlawed in the under the settings regions ruling caste (I.E. those allied with the priesthood of Iuz), is that right ? Does that apply to clerics / oracles / druids / any other form of caster as well ?
Are they actively hunted and tracked down, or are they outlawed because one is afraid of their magical prowess and possible threats to the powers-that-be ?

Short Answer: Yes

Long Answer:
Arcane Casters are required by law to register with the government. Those who are found to be unregistered are considered criminals. We are considering a Government Sponsored Mage guild in Rookroost itself, when unregistered mages come to light, bounties will be placed on them. If you cast spells openly within city walls, and you are not registered, expect to attract quite a bit of attention.

It is against the law to worship or serve any faith outside of Iuz, the Dimre is allowed to openly worship Pholtus as when Iuz's armies came knocking on their door, they handed his armies their asses. The Dimre is not a bunch of good guys, they are dark masochistic fanatics who believe if they do not endure great suffering the light and glory of Pholtus will come to an end. These laws are unenforceable outside the cities unless you start casting spells in front of an Iuzian patrol, but then I am willing to bet the players are attacking such a force if they are casting spells in front of it.

Now, if the player is not casting spells or standing on soap boxes in the street, they will not be discovered. At the same time we are creating a branch of the Church of Iuz attempt to discover these persons, as well as our Gestapo-like guard unit, whom will have the same job, but have higher authority within Rookroost's territory. The goal is to make the two evil organizations feel like they are enemies or unfriendly rivals, and make players feel like there is a real danger for making rash or stupid decisions.

Iuz is the demigod of Trickery and Oppression, he does not have the tyranny domain because he is a Demigod, and we limited Demigods to one domain plus their alignment domains. Should his followers do something in game that we feel would give him enough power to advance to a lesser god he will gain the Tyranny domain.

Back to spell lists, so we should have a short list of spells which all clerics share, then also add spells for the domains on top of them. Sounds reasonable enough. I doubt this part makes it into alpha, assuming I do not have to debug a bunch of our classes during alpha it should be ready for beta. They still have their channel energy ability, so I am not sure we need to give them the heals/inflicts. Only way I could ensure spontaneous casting worked the way it should is if I made the Cure Spells and Inflict Spells one spell, and checked the alignment of the cleric. I would use the same method we used for channel energy good/neutral cleric cure, evil clerics harm. If they can spontaneously cast, I am not sure we need to have those spells on their individual lists. To my knowledge there is no way to allow neutral clerics the ability to choose, unless we had them pick a feat. I will look into it, if it is possible, then I could also make it work that way for channel energy.

EDIT: I can indeed make feats which are restricted by alignments, and should be able to set up a 1st level feat for both Clerics and Divine Champions which would control the type of energy they cast, and a clerics spontaneous casting.
Channel Positive Energy (Requires Non-Evil)
Channel Negative Energy (Requires Non-Good)

I can set up Touch of Faith, Channel Energy and a group of Wound Spells that would cure or harm based on this feat.
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PostSubject: Re: Cleric Spell List Changes?   Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:20 am

After further investigation, this will not be possible without doing one of two things.
A) Make clerics spontaneous casters.
B) Make clerics arcane casters.

As we do not wish to do either, the idea is being scraped for now until Pain is able to revamp the spell system.

The feats for cleric/dc will still be made as that was a good idea so players have more choices.

I will be revamping the cleric list, when I am done putting it together, I will post it here before adding it to the Cleric entry.
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PostSubject: Re: Cleric Spell List Changes?   Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:19 am

Okay, that makes a lot of sense.


I guess quite a bunch of players will just love to roll up characters involved with the cult of Iuz - it's evil, its members are allowed to unleash their divine energies, and it's the more or less ruling organization in the setting-to-be.
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PostSubject: Re: Cleric Spell List Changes?   Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:41 pm

any players will likely be relatively low-ranking members unless they are able to prove their worth and advance higher in the power structure. While the clerics of Iuz are technically part of the ruling body, the Lord Marshall of rookroost is not particularly friendly to Iuz's clergy, and the city's officials and guards will likely afford them very little actual respect or authority.

i.e. rolling a cleric of Iuz is not a quick and easy route to power. It IS a good way to get your cleric publicly executed for repeated failures or gaffes.

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PostSubject: Re: Cleric Spell List Changes?   Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:12 pm

Mammon wrote:

i.e. rolling a cleric of Iuz is not a quick and easy route to power. It IS a good way to get your cleric publicly executed for repeated failures or gaffes.

Nah, thats only if they come back alive from their suicide mission. Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Cleric Spell List Changes?   Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:20 pm

All Washed Up wrote:
Mammon wrote:

i.e. rolling a cleric of Iuz is not a quick and easy route to power. It IS a good way to get your cleric publicly executed for repeated failures or gaffes.

Nah, thats only if they come back alive from their suicide mission. Twisted Evil

*GASP* Such insolence!

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